The State Hermitage Museum: Information

Times Not Past: Twenty Years Service with the State Hermitage Museum
Radio Interview on Ekho Moskvi 91.2 FM
19.08.2012

Ì.PESHKOVA: I learnt that Mikhail Piotrovsky has been the director of one of the world's largest museums, the State Hermitage Museum for 20 years from an interview with him by Yuliya Kantor, a doctor of history, published in Moskovskie Novosti. I gathered my things and rushed off to the city centre. Anything as long as I arrived on time for my meeting with Mikhail Piotrovsky to find out what it was like 20 years ago? How did it happen that scholar like yourself chose this work at the museum?

Ì.PIOTROVSKY: Well, I didn't choose the work, you could say the museum chose me. Well, firstly, it is very important to understand scholarship and the museum. There is an important tradition, which used to exist, mainly European, in difference to American. Now, not all museums in Europe follow it, but it is an important tradition, that the museum director should also be a scholar. Furthermore, he should be a working scholar, who should simultaneously work as a scholar, as a university lecturer, as an author and an exhibition curator, and other such roles. This is incredibly important, and the State Hermitage Museum has always followed this, as do many other museums. In Europe and America, just as here nowadays, they say there must be managers, they do have scholars but the focus is on managers. Well, managers are like party officials - they can do everything. And when people reached the position of State Hermitage Museum director sometimes it was quiet, and sometimes tempestuous, but as a rule, scholars have always been chosen, and during the Soviet period as well. So that's how it was, but what exactly happened? It happened that the director of the State Hermitage Museum (Boris Borisovich's deputy, Suslov, who later became the director) invited me to be the first deputy and the deputy for science. But it was clear to everyone that after some time I would become the director. It was for that purpose that he had invited me. Well, I must say that I had no reservations, because this is important work and to some extent it's a continuation of my father's work. I had a feeling that I was at home here and I could do things that others couldn't. Although it was clear that some of the scholarly work would have to be put aside from the usual working day to do at night, and there was so much to do, so much that I had wanted to do and never have the chance to get done. And going on expeditions is now impossible, but in general, I grew up in the State Hermitage Museum, this is my home, when I was summoned to return there were no real doubts. After that things happened and came together pretty nicely.

Ì.PESHKOVA: Incidentally, who signed the decision, Gaidar?

Ì.PIOTROVSKY: The decision on the State Hermitage Museum, which included my appointment, was signed by Egor Gaidar, who was then acting Prime Minister. And the instructions were signed by Minister Sidorov, because museum directors are appointed by the Ministry of Culture. I was the first and last who was appointed by a Prime Minister, those were good times.

Ì.PESHKOVA: And did you know Gaidar, had your roads crossed previously?

Ì.PIOTROVSKY: No, I hadn't met him before that, nor afterwards. Basically I didn't know him. I knew of him, then once he made a visit when I had already become State Hermitage Museum director. Recognizing him, as he arrived I met him and thanked him. We talked briefly. But in general, I didn't know him. Then after some significant amount of time we met again. I think it was during the visit of the President of Mexico who wanted to meet a few Russian intellectuals. There was Gaidar, myself and one of the economists. So on that occasion our paths crossed but overally you could say we barely knew each other.

Ì.PESHKOVA: Did your father's lessons become important specifically at that time when you became director? I understand that when you take on such a position you enter into another world.

Ì.PIOTROVSKY: The world wasn't different, the world was..., well, as I said, I grew up there. The Hermitage was the first place I entered as a child. I spent a lot of my life in the Hermitage, I worked a lot and studied a lot there. I knew all the events, I knew the background. But it was clear that fate brought me here, and to be honest it doesn't happen often, there are unusual occasions when a son holds his father's position, in any country. Well if fate so ordained it, it means that there must be some reason for it, it means that there's work to be done, especially as those were hard times, bad times and dad complained about them constantly at that time. To be honest, the situation was, putting it mildly, not very good both around us and within the museum itself. It was quite necessary to come up with new ways of doing things because we were scared. Fear is always present when you are doing something new, and when there are no recipes, but you know that what you are doing is only scratching the surface. With every small step it was understood and then it became clear which directions we need needed to take, what needed to be done and where we needed to go. We were very scared, we lived with constant fear, constantly on edge because at any moment anything could happen, and it is a large responsibility, but actually it is an ordinary for starting business kind of fear.

Ì.PESHKOVA: I wanted to ask you if you received criticism for being Piotrovsky's son? 'Well of course, he would pick up his dad's job', that sort of conversation probably occurred.

Ì.PIOTROVSKY: Yes, such comments were made constantly, and even now. I have got used to them. I must say that in the State Hermitage Museum itself there have been many arguments about the establishment of some sort of dynasty. People have told me that they "were against it at the time but it looks like it's turned out well after all". There were people who said, "I said this would happen, that what I proposed". There are a lot of such people. This always happens. Then there are a lot of discussions, debates and it's necessary to show them that I'm in the right place. But there are two parts to it, that I'm Piotrovsky's son, which I am accustomed to. In those circles where I have been: at home, university and the State Hermitage Museum, my surname comes with a huge amount of responsibility. And I got no concessions for it, and I could hardly wait for them. I often quote, and I think you have quoted it too, Professor Petrushevsky, during a university exam in my second year, "You are Boris Borisovich's son, so to get a 5 you need to answer well enough to get a 6." It is this area, where I always had to and still have to do more, perhaps, than others, certainly that's how I feel. Of course, on the other hand, the entire world thinks that I got lucky - although I don't understand why. Of course, there were many who wanted this position. I believe that fate, well maybe not fate entirely, the government and colleagues in the Ministry of Culture and other places came from the list of candidates, list of those who wanted it so badly. I think this was also considered. I think in my case I was probably less ambitious, let us say, and didn't chomp at the bit quite so much. And there was that old management principle in the Soviet times - to appoint someone who didn't want it.

Ì.PESHKOVA: What lessons did your father teach you? What were they for you as the person who took up the director's chair?

Ì.PIOTROVSKY: To formulate them is impossible; they simply… work quietly, calmly. Don't lecture people, teach by the way you do things, understand the significance of culture, the significance of the museum. Understand that is the most important thing, try to drum it to the others' heads that culture is the reason the world exists. The museum is the thing that preserves and protects this culture. This is a type of lesson which is important and international. It sounds grand but it is the real mission of the museum. It is very important and once you have learnt it then other lessons become clear. My dad's door was always open, as is mine, but sometimes people shouted at him, and he sometimes shouted, but I have moments when I start to shout. He was always good natured and kind, not vindictive, but with a good memory. There, those were some of the things. He was an excellent manager, a wonderful director, a man in the right place at the right time, a person that everyone related to calmly. I constantly compare myself with what he would do and I know what he did, and basically, I do most things differently, but we live in completely different times, but the results are the same. As a whole, I know what he would say, I know his position, I know that he approves of what I have done.

Ì.PESHKOVA: I would like to ask you, to be honest, I had an idea to question you about those events in the past 20 years which were decisive, which have left a mark on you. For the last 20 years of work at the State Hermitage Museum, what have been the most interesting? What have you taken to heart - I apologize for such a grandiloquent question.

Ì.PIOTROVSKY: Here I would like to answer and grandiloquent question with a very grounded response. There have been many events which have helped my colleagues not so much as restore but increase the Hermitage's reputation and highlight what the State Hermitage Museum stands for. I believe an important event was when we received a decree from the president, granting us his patronage. This is a special category, there aren't any such legal categories. It is an acknowledgement of our special role as a great museum: the State Hermitage Museum is a memorial to the Russian State, it represents Russian history, and not only history. And the arrival of President Yeltsin, which was not easy to arrange, also emphasized this role as he was the first head of state to come here after Nicholas I as a head of state. The popular tipsy Khrushchev came to Palace Square once, and never came back. And this is very important and Fedor Nikolaevich was very proud of this. And I believe another point is very important, that we managed to receive some money for purchases, because it was promised at the time when it was difficult to think about it, but there was money and we began increase the collections at the State Hermitage Museum. It was a powerful break, you understand, when a museum buys, buys not many things, but important things. It was promised by the president, then the supervisory management, which occurred under Putin, it enabled us to carry things out. This was a breakthrough. Later other museums began to receive money in the build up to celebrations for exponents. And another important thing was opening the gate on the Palace Square and making an entrance. At one stage there was a temporary entrance through the garden but we made a permanent entrance through the garden. By doing this Palace Square became an entrance area for the State Hermitage Museum. And the role of the State Hermitage Museum and the Winter Palace as the city centre became more significant. This urban role is one which we are very involved with. Also another, let us say, event was when we made entrance tickets free to children, students and Russian pensioners. This was during a time when there was nothing free, even for children. Now in some places there are free services available but that is also part of a unique social programme where caring for our visitors is the main goal.

Ì.PESHKOVA: State Hermitage Museum Director Mikhail Piotrovsky, on our programme Times Not Past on Ekho Moskvi is talking to us about 20 years service in his post.

Ì.PIOTROVSKY: I think it was very important when we decided to exhibit trophy art, and not only to display it, but came up with the approach of combining the appropriate level of scandal with the appropriate level of patriotism. We have so many themes which are thought to be ours, and we are engaged in all of them, for example the War of 1812. There is always a specific method for each, and I think that with trophy art we were able to make it into an artistic sensation; artistic and not political, and the display succeeded in angering many in Germany and Russia because it was an intelligent display, a museum exhibition which reduced the acute nature of the theme. I think it was very important for me when we decided to halt the restoration of Danae and put it on display. This was an extremely complicated problem because people had been restoring and restoring it for years, and of course, the restoration could go on indefinitely, we had to raise the issue and make a decision. There was a commission back then which should have made the decision, but all the members of the commission had died and it was already past the Soviet period, so now the director could make the decision, but with greater responsibility. I took the advice of specialists - ours and those overseas. I decided enough was enough, we will put it on display, return it to the public and again tell the history as it is, as there was a lot of legends and speculation, everyone lives on sensation, everyone loves them. And a sensation, as a rule, is no sensation, just an event with plenty of details: scientific, educational, cultural, which need sensation to show them to the people. In particular to explain what the Hermitage Restoration School was.
Then I think, when I had succeeded in reaching an agreement to bring the first picture of those that had been sold back to the State Hermitage Museum. And we created an entire system for these exhibitions which talked about the long, shameful history about how the government had sold the pictures from the State Hermitage Museum. But again, we did in such a manner that in fact it was the appearance of friendship among museums, because we agreed with the Estonian National Gallery and their trustees. They too didn't really want to do it, they have their own policies, it wasn't necessary for them, and perhaps they didn't want to excite Russian audiences. We began to bring in one picture after another, later from the museum, (INAUDIBLE). Unfortunately, this has now ceased. It is two years already since any museum exchanges with the United States, they cannot give any guarantees that property will not be seized. But that is a different story, although we do have our successes. Together with other museums in Europe we succeeded in changing international legislation and the legislation of various countries to guarantee artwork will not be seized. There was on time when they tried to seize paintings by Matisse in France. We went to court. Of course when I went to the Supreme Appellate Court to participate in the meeting where I was used as an argument by the procurator - the pictures should under no circumstances be seized because there is such a person as Ì. Piotrovsky. The threat of Piotrovsky was due to the work of journalists who in a final interview reported that I said that should the Matisse paintings be held for even so much as ten minutes then France would not get the opportunity to see, this, that, and the other paintings. At that time we had a large list of what we should send to France. This sounded like the French procurator's argument that there the paintings should not be seized. And then this became the basis of the appearance of new legislation in Germany. The last case was in the United Kingdom when a large Russian exhibition was due to be sent there. It should have been exhibited at the Royal Academy, and then the fear arose that it might be seized, because this was already becoming more common, now this is common, when someone thinks the Russian Government owes them something and the government refuses, then they seize property of some sort. The danger of this sort of situation is constant, so there should be legislation providing immunity to seizure. And now, the last case in the United Kingdom, initially they said, "Well, guys, you must be mad, we have a judiciary. An independent state, and independent judicial system, a democratic country, we can't make any guarantees. If the court suddenly orders a seizure, then there will be a seizure". Well, that means there can't be an exhibition. And this was a large exhibition, it was the right moment, the exhibition had items from numerous Russian museums: Avant-garde, the State Hermitage Museum, and others. Then our British colleagues approached their ministers in parliament and the conversation lasted several years. I arrived in London on business and the minister told me about what the British had already done in this area. The end of the story was that the parliament met after its winter break, the day before the exhibition and passed the necessary laws to make guarantees, giving the government the power to guarantee items being brought over for exhibitions from seizure. The courts may decide who it belongs to, but that is a different matter. After they have arrived for an exhibition, if it has been agreed that there will be such an exhibition, and that it is needed for England, then there can be no seizures. This is also the issue with the United States, but it is a little more complicated, but it's similar where big changes need to be made to help museum activities, museum activities are shared.

Ì.PESHKOVA: I wanted to ask you about the State Hermitage Museum's branches, this is surely a grand event which to this day is not valued by the press.

Ì.PIOTROVSKY: You know, in truth it's not entirely valued, when we first started one of the initial evaluations was "what right do you think you have showing foreigners these museum items?" They said this about both exhibitions and the branches. This was largely contrary to the comments of the western press. In the western media I remember when we opened our State Hermitage in the centre of London, there was, I think in The Times, a large article saying how they should learn from Russians. They share their collections, they under the meaning of culture is to share, to talk about our collections, to show people what things are. But these really aren't branches but our centres since branches should be joined administratively, and we do not send items to them on a constant basis. These are legal entities in the countries where the centres exist. We call them sputniks, based on the first meaning in Russian 'partners' but the second meaning is a satellite that goes into orbit. From orbit, it can be lowered, you can change its content, let us say, have channels which broadcast television, others which transmit other items. It's a dynamic system, which is exactly what we have established with these centres. These are the centres where we can do exhibitions, and engage in various museum projects, furthermore, they can be closed, or alter their profile. For example, we have had the Hermitage-Guggenheim for seven years together with the Guggenheim in Las Vegas. It was difficult to maintain, we tried to do everything without sponsorship. But we changed Las Vegas, now they are doing exhibitions there, everything is now slightly different there. So you can say that we have accomplished our mission there, which means that we have started thinking about what we can do in other locations. The Hermitage has been operating in Somerset House in London for seven years. There have been wonderful exhibitions put on there, but then we encountered various complications: political and others. Collecting money has become difficult. Nonetheless we succeeded in collecting money, but it has become hard to raise money both for England and so that we had something left for our Hermitage projects. And now the British friends of the Hermitage, along the lines of Hermitage-London, are raising money and working to show contemporary art at the State Hermitage Museum. We have the Hermitage 20/21 project which is based not on money which it raises but on the connections of our British friends. And the Hermitage-Amsterdam Centre is an extremely capable organization. It exists and has its own foundation Hermitage-Amsterdam with a building which was given to the foundation by the Amsterdam City, because we were able to show that such a building in the centre make the city more attractive to tourists. They will stay to spend another day in Amsterdam. Things really are working out. And there we hold large exhibitions once a year, have lectures. It is a powerful Russian presence. Furthermore, when important events occur, they also are held over there. The next year is the Netherlands-Russia year. A lot is going on there. We are currently working both here and there on the base of this centre. We have achieved an agreement for archived material (INAUDIBLE). This is a thorny issue. We have reached an agreement, signed it at the Hermitage-Amsterdam Centre. The Hermitage-Italy Centre is completely different in terms of content. It is a scientific centre and assists with the organization of exhibitions and most importantly, it is a place where people can live, work, receive grants, travel through Italy, write books. And this centre publishes catalogues on Italian art at the State Hermitage Museum. Our work is published, and there is an organisation. We have a wonderful centre in Kazan, there you can see every kind of museum activity. To be honest, although it's impudent for us to say so, but for us the whole world is identical. We have St. Petersburg, and then - everything that is around St. Petersburg; over there is Kazan, London. Incidentally, we have the same demands for Kazan as we do for London or Amsterdam. The climate, the level of PR, the quality of people opening the exhibition. We have an excellent centre at the Kazan Kremlin. At the moment there is a large exhibition Nomadic Empires of Eurasia. Only the State Hermitage Museum could create an exhibition like that with its own material. There's a lot else going on there. All forms of the State Hermitage Museum's activities occur there: lecturing, working with children, computer classes, virtual tours of the State Hermitage Museum, and they also do their own, small exhibitions. It's an important cultural centre in its own right in Kazan.
"Hermitage Vyborg" is located in a building that used to be an art gallery and a school. To this day there is an art school for children and the second half is occupied by the State Hermitage Museum, which shares its exhibitions, not on so large scale as in Kazan, but usually associated with what is being displayed at the State Hermitage Museum. At the moment there is a French applied art exhibition named Three Centuries of French Elegance. This is Louise XIV of France, before and after. It shows the elegant items which you would never see en masse at the State Hermitage Museum. And there too are many of the activities that the State Hermitage Museum is involved in. And we carry our work from one location to another and this is very important thing, because the State Hermitage is a cultural phenomenon. It's not just a collection of good items, it is a scientific centre which needs to publicize itself. It is an educational centre that knows its business. We also have a plan of how to do, what we do and we also impose a little there: work, work, like we do.

Ì.PESHKOVA: A final question connected with Venice. What work following the restoration will you put on display there?

Ì.PIOTROVSKY: In Venice we will display Titian -Flight into Egypt. For 10 years we have been restoring it. Our restorers have cleaned it entirely. The result has been astonishing. It is one of earliest if not the earliest painting by Titian. It is mentioned by Vasari. In fact, it is almost clear where it was hung in Venice, it is also clear that it was, as I said, one of his earliest pieces and definitely a masterpiece. We always argue about masterpieces, this is a masterpiece and it has an amazing landscape, there is such a clear similarity to the Venitian tradition. There same, Venitian fabric and huge landscape shows northern influences. It was done at the same time as Durer worked in Venice and together they achieved something amazing. We were stunned and organised such an international opening. We showed it here, firstly to museum workers, and journalists. Then we showed it in London where there was an entire exhibition to the young Titian, and it was the main masterpiece. Now it will arrive in Venice and will be shown in Venice. There will be information about it and about the collection and our restoration. I must say that our restoration is an extremely important part of the State Hermitage Museum's work, and we are very proud of our restorers and regularly participate in various exhibitions of restored works and regularly display such restorations for several years.

Ì.PESHKOVA: Two decades of service with the State Hermitage Museum, its director, Academician Mikhail Piotrovsky, on several episodes of is life and the museum under his care on Ekho Moskvi.
Sound recorder: Alexandr Smirnov, and I am Maiya Peshkova, on Times Not Past. This time next week you can listen to Academician Piotrovsky again on our programme.