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   Interview with the newspaper Novye Izvestiya - Mikhail Borisovich, you soon will be opening in Kazan the first branch location of the Hermitage inside Russia... - This is not a branch museum but an exhibition center situated on the territory of the Kazan Kremlin park. We will be opening several exhibitions in Kazan relating to the Golden Horde. Two stereotypes have developed with respect to the Golden Horde. The first is that this was an enemy of Russia. Our country is said to have lived under the yoke of the Horde for 300 years and it was, as many people believe, something terrible from which we barely escaped. This is an incorrect generalization, because Russia was fragmented when it fell under the control of a world power, which in terms of civilization was an order of magnitude higher than Russia of that day. Then the Moscow princes used the Golden Horde in order to gain strength and created their own state which ultimately replaced the Horde. There is also a second stereotype which tells us there was a great and wonderful power called the Golden Horde which the Russians attacked and destroyed. In fact history hardly develops like that. In the course of the Mongol onslaught a great many states arose. This was a huge steppe empire which had trade ties with Iran, Italy, the Northern Caucasus, the Crimea and Siberia. This state adopted Islam and thereby grew close to the high culture of the day. Its neighbors were Russian principalities and Lithuania, which was expected to give rise to a great Russian state. However, the Poles prevented Lithuania from growing into a Slavic superpower. There are many different interesting questions in history and it would be nice to discuss them while referring to real artifacts. An exhibition of this type dealing with the Golden Horde was never before staged. It will display items from the urban civilization of the Golden Horde, which, I might add, was called "golden" by the Russians themselves in recognition of its enviable opulence. All of this provides material for reflection. Newspapers and television fill people's minds with various ideas. But at the exhibition one can dismiss what other people say and sort things out for oneself: why are these vessels so beautiful? Or why are Persian verses written on the walls? This is the most important function of a museum: to show genuine articles. This is what makes it possible to develop ideas. I can appreciate that an exhibition dealing with the Golden Horde will be controversial. People will be "for it" or "against it." They will say what right do you have to show this. - Why did you take up oriental studies? Were you convinced you could make a living at this, or did you not think about the material side of the profession at all? - I did not think about the material component, because I believed that if I were involved in scholarship I would never go hungry. Moreover, in the Soviet Union specialists in oriental studies had no problem finding jobs as translators, university instructors or staff in research institutes. But I did not spend time thinking about this. In those days we all lived pretty much the same. - What about prestige? - I cannot think of anything more prestigious than scholarship and science. - Do you still read the Koran in the morning? - Yes, but not only the Koran. In my office there are also Arabic manuscripts, the Thousand and One Nights from the 18th century. I read them as well as passages from the Koran. - It is true that museum staff do not have the right to engage in art collecting? - Of course, there is no law forbidding it, and each of us decides for himself. I personally think it is better not to collect. Not because you might steal something, but because when the moment of decision comes you might buy something for yourself instead of for the museum. There are no such conflicts if you are not a collector. - This concerns you as well? - Nowadays I don't collect anything. When I was in school, I used to collect coins and stamps. - Might one not say that you collect jobs? People say that in 2002 you were offered the chance to become the Governor of St Petersburg. Is that just idle rumor or were there grounds for that story? - None at all. That was nonsense. Sometimes people say: "We could use a Governor like that," but no one ever spoke seriously about this. I have always got on splendidly with all the Governors. - Do you have the right to phone the President? - I may, of course. Putin and I have normal business-like relations. I can ask him for assistance when necessary, but as you may know he has his own habits. He does not like phone calls and immediate decisions. He creates conditions for people to come forward and do something. He will never do anything just because of personal ties. - You have expressed your concern that in the future museums may be left without state aid, because the separate budgetary item covering museums has disappeared. So how do you solve problems with the bureaucrats in the government? - You have to do battle with those people. It is a permanent tug of war. At first the government could not find any money for us. Instead of money they gave us our freedom and now the museums have a lot of freedom, including the freedom to dispose of the money they themselves earn. We can spend this money on the museum's development. But we nonetheless continue to need state subsidies. These were liquidated in the 122nd law. We in the Union of Russian Museums did a great deal and with help from the Presidential Administration and its Council on Culture we prepared a number of draft laws relating to reform of the budget. Now they are considerably better than they were initially. This was one phase in the struggle to keep in place the state's obligations to support culture. Sometimes our interests do not coincide with the interests of the bureaucrats, and then we should do everything possible to bring them together. Usually we succeed, but it takes a lot of effort. - You are quite outspoken about bureaucrats. Who backs you up? - I have the Hermitage behind me and my profession. I am in a situation where I can and should say what I think. Thank heaven, I became director in the post-Soviet era and always say what is on my mind. - Employees in the field of culture never had decent salaries. Nowadays culture largely depends on enthusiasm and commitment of museum employees among others. But many scholars work in the Hermitage. What do they earn? - Our staff earn relatively better pay than the Hermitage's museum employees used to make during the Soviet period. We provide social coverage and it is a cardinal issue of policy. The average monthly salary of our employees is 13,000 rubles, and this is quite decent for museum institutions nowadays. Moreover, we pay for their transportation and meals. In any case they are better protected socially than their colleagues in the provinces. - The Hermitage is part of the history of Russia. Can we say that, like Russia itself, the museum has a special historical mission? - The Hermitage is a manifestation of Russia's special mission. The Hermitage is a museum, but it is not the national museum of Russian art. We have separate institutions: the Russian Museum and the Hermitage, which is a museum of world art, where all countries are represented, including Russia. As early as during the reign of Catherine the Great everything collected here was displayed altogether. This is one of the features of Russian openness which defines Russia's cultural mission. But there is also a second grand mission of the Hermitage: to save our heritage independently of all political vicissitudes, and this does not only mean saving the heritage that is on display. We should be ready for demands that will come in the future. After the exhibition on Nicholas and Alexandra, one of our politicians asked in amazement: "How did you manage to save these things? How is it they were not all destroyed?" And I answered him, saying "The museum is not an exhibition gallery. A lot of things are not put on display and that is how these things were preserved." Things are not only preserved in the museum but they are also studied there. In the Hermitage we create conditions whereby we do not lose track of who we are and where we came from. On the contrary, the history of the nation is collected here. - You always stress the conservatism of the Hermitage. How appropriate is this conservatism today when we have the Internet and cyber space? - I always emphasize that the Hermitage is conservative because we cannot make rash steps. We are a large ocean liner which turns slowly, and if we try to turn quickly then we may capsize. We should work with tried and true things. Sometimes artists tell me as a joke: "You have to die in order to be put on display in the Hermitage." But it is precisely by working with exhibits that have stood the test of time that the Hermitage has been able to become the leading museum. Then there is also our technical equipment. We have the best Internet site among the world's museums and we use technology to a degree that other museums do not, at least not in Russia. At the same time we maintain a conservative stance and do not play with smoke and mirrors. If the Hermitage shows new world-class art, we consciously ensure it goes well with our classics. That is why the names of the artists whom we put on display are absolutely irreproachable and recognized by the whole world. In this regard we are in favor of the Avantgarde, but without showing off or extravagance. - To what extent do museums and politics mix? Aside from tsarist articles do you have anything in the Hermitage that has never been shown to general public? - There was a time when we didn't show the Avantgarde - Picasso and Matisse. When we started to exhibit them there were great scandals, but we always did so in the context of French art. I still remember the days when we would treat guests to our Kandinsky paintings in the storerooms. There was a time when we did not put on display the trophy art brought back from Germany. To be sure, a large part has already been given back long ago. Otherwise there is nothing kept from view. There is a lot of erotica and, yes, it was mostly never put on display. Not long ago we organized an exhibition in Amsterdam entitled From the Hermitage with Love, and there was a separate room with erotica. I accompanied the Queen of the Netherlands around the exhibition and also showed her this room. There was no unhealthy fuss about this exhibition in Amsterdam. They have erotica on every street corner and so our exhibition was accepted as pure art. - You have shown the museum to kings and queens, presidents and other heads of state. Who made a pleasant impression on you? - Many people have left an impression. I should say that in the museum people behave naturally. The American presidents made an impression. It was obvious they had prepared for the visit to the Hermitage. This was clear from my conversations with Clinton and with Bush. I always can understand whether some one knows something from childhood or has specially prepared. They prepared and knew what to ask and how. That is an important quality. French President Chirac also made a big impression. He knows a lot about the culture of Russia and the East, the art of Tibet and Siam. I took him around the oriental rooms where we usually do not take our guests. - And who was impressive among your Russian guests? - Shaimiev. His assistants were the first to ask about arranging an exhibition in Kazan, but I turned them down. Then the President of Tatarstan himself came. We have our Armorial Hall. All the coats of arms of the Russian guberniya are shown on the chandeliers. He asked me, "Where is our Kazan coat of arms?" I replied that I did not know. "Until we find it, I am not leaving," he said and began to look for it. He found it! The coat of arms on the most distant chandelier. So when he later spoke about having an exhibition I could no longer refuse. - You even took Saddam Hussein around these rooms... - Yes, I took him as well. He was at the time the number two leader in Iraq. However, he was indifferent to art. He only talked about the revolution all the time. - How do feel about the plundering of Iraqi monuments of culture? - I am in the UNESCO group calling for their preservation and have spoken out a great deal in this regard, but unfortunately it is not possible to conduct any inspection in Iraq at present. Real theft of cultural monuments is going on there, though most of the stealing is done by local residents. Of course totalitarian regimes are bad, but they at least keep the local population in order, whereas now there is real theft. Every family has its plot of land and they all are digging and sifting. - You were in New York on that fateful September 11th. Was it frightening? - Of course. It was all fantastic. No one expected something like this to happen. I arrived at the Guggenheim (the largest museum in the USA - NI) and I saw how the first skyscraper fell. It was frightening because no one knew what would come next. - Now I have a question for you as an expert on Arab affairs. Why is it that there is no Buddhist or Christian extremism, only Islamic extremism? - There is Christian extremism, and it is no better than the Islamic variety. What is Ulster all about? Catholic extremism is right there in Ulster. The largest terrorist explosion in the USA prior to September 11th was in Oklahoma. In America there are plenty of Christian extremists, and the terrible thing is that they are armed and threaten to arrange things as they see fit. To a certain extent they do just that. There is also Jewish extremism and Moslem extremism, but these are all incorrectly labeled. Extremism everywhere is extremism. It can be socialist or religious or nationalistic, but it never has any connection to religion however easy it may seem to give it that label. All this takes us away from the essence of the matter. In fact the situation is very difficult. The roots of the problem are not clear and things become acute. It seems to me that the present problem with terrorism is like the situation with the atomic bomb, and you can say "the game's up!" When nationalism was strong around the world and there was a struggle for independence among the countries of the East and Africa, they leaned towards socialism. Religion was used as an antidote. Afghanistan is a classical example. Brzezinski once said: "We will use Islam to defeat Russia." Bin Laden was created by America. Only now the Americans have gotten acute religious extremism. The Israelis supported Hamas in Palestine in order to apply pressure on Arafat and the other nationalists. And what came out of all this? Unfortunately we are living in an age when the political role of religion has sharply intensified, although in fact politics and religion should be quite far removed from each other. - You were the chairman of the board of ORT... - But now I am just a member of the board. - What do you say about television and culture? - The fact is that the board of directors has no influence at all on the channel's programming. When we meet it is to look over the financial affairs. In this area Channel One has become a most successful organization, but its programs on culture are very weak as is generally true of television. On the other hand, there is the Culture Channel and on Channel One they make a nod in its direction. But this is not much. Unfortunately, culture has fallen outside the interests of business. Television and culture live their separate lives. - You are sensitive to the question of the return of trophy art, aren't you? - It is not a sore point, but people talk about it more than it is worth. - You are surely not surprised that this subject is raised fairly often by bureaucrats responsible for culture. - The question is not whether to return things or not. It is a question of cultural policy. Firstly, the word "return" is not appropriate here. You can transfer or not transfer these things. And the question must be solved in a concrete way. We have a State Duma and it is responsible for making federal laws. If it, as the representative of the nation, adopts a law saying that such and such an item from our museum is needed more in Germany than in our country, then we will submit to this. This is not something which bureaucrats should decide. Such decisions should be adopted publicly, through discussion of every separate situation. Let us take the latest scandal, for example, this sad case of the Anhalt silver. We are told that the owner was a good man, that it was taken from him and should be returned. But the problem is that it was taken not from his house but from a bank where this good man, who was a member of the Nazi party by the way, kept his silver. Each separate case should be examined in full. And there should be no shouting that "We will give nothing back! We shed our blood." The blood was shed, but not for this. And there is also no need to shout "We will give it all back, because we were guilty." We were not guilty of anything. There are the interests of Russia and the interests of the museums, and we have to decide what we need and what we do not need. - On whose side are the bureaucrats when they say that the trophy art should be returned? - You see how everything is grist for someone's mill. Everyone has his own interests. There are political interests, political orders and they are used as a cover. That is bad. Once I was with the director of a museum in Berlin and we declared that "if only all the politicians and journalists would leave us alone, we would solve these questions in 10 minutes." All the bureaucrats in Germany took offense at these words. Why is it that no one remembers how much Russia has already turned over to Germany? If we did not transfer what we did back in the ‘60's, then half of the museums in Berlin wouldn't exist today. - If I am not mistaken, the Hermitage is the only museum to have branches abroad? - That is not quite right. Both the Hermitage and the Guggenheim have exhibition centers abroad. This fact brought us together, and now we have a close alliance, which is why we combine our efforts in various events. You might call us a cartel. The Hermitage's exhibition centers were born out of our permanent exhibitions. Several museums have satellite locations in their own countries. Not long ago a branch of the Boston Museum closed in Japan; it failed financially. - How is sponsorship assistance coming along? Aren't companies all excited about helping culture? - We still have to find sponsors. Our exhibition centers are all financed locally in the countries where they operate, and we receive part of the revenue. The only center which has no need for outside financing is Las Vegas. It is running a small profit and the ticket sales cover all costs. In London and in Amsterdam we are always looking for sponsors, though in Amsterdam the situation looks stable for the coming several years. - Let's return to the issue of the Hermitage's exhibition in Kazan. I don't want to offend anyone, but how do you solve problems when opening exhibitions out in the country, in a place that is quite "provincial." - That is an important question. We set tough conditions. For example, we decided in favor of creating a Hermitage Center in Kazan only after we held three exhibitions there. Initially President Shaimiev asked us to show the Pereshchepinsky treasure. I replied that we will not take this treasure, and if we bring something it is only on the condition that the local museum is repaired and meets our requirements. We have a saying that for us it is all the same whether we are exhibiting in London or in Kazan. We have a check list of 200 questions from all of our departments, and if all the 200 requirements are met, then we go. We are now preparing several Hermitage exhibitions around Russia and everywhere the same 200 points are observed. Thus we are helping our "brethren." We cannot give them any money, but we can pressure the authorities into making repairs to the local museums. Sometimes people ask us: "Why do we need this exhibition? It's so expensive!" But the Hermitage is not paid anything for them. What we want is respect and a show of real interest, otherwise we will not go. After our exhibition is over, the museum repairs remain. For example, the museum in Lipetsk is now ready to receive exhibitions from other major museums. In this sense provincialism is overcome, and there is no such thing as provincialism in scholarship. The interview is accessible on the Internet at: |
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