Internet meeting with Mikhail Borisovich Piotrovsky in the Hermitage's CafeMax
On 26 April 2004

- Isn't there a danger for the Hermitage, as a building, if it is turned into a kind of Louvre? if behind that splendid historical facade we conceal what from the standpoint of communications and safety may be the most modern equipment but is otherwise a soulless COPY which has nothing in common with that great history that went on in these walls?
- Now there is a pleasant danger! The Louvre is one of the best museums in the world with just two or three peers in the world. One of which is the Hermitage. I don't think that it is so bad inside the Louvre. Nothing totally new, just very good restoration work. But what you have caught is correct: there is a certain distinction between the Louvre and the Hermitage. The Louvre stopped being a palace long ago. Its huge halls the size of railway stations have been divided up to serve the purposes of a museum. Therefore the felling of history that you have in the Hermitage does not exist in the Louvre. For their part, they want that and are trying hard to resurrect it. They have already restored part of the historic interiors. As regards technical equipment, this is all new as is necessary in such matters. We nearly stopped making our new air conditioning system in the Hermitage because those boxes spoil the view, but you cannot do without them. What we try to do is ensure that the technical systems are not visible.

- Mikhail Borisovich, why did you choose the art of the Orient for your scholarly specialization? What influenced your choice? Do you have a desire to get involved with something else, for example, China?
- My specialization is not the Art of the Orient, but rather history in general, and more specifically the history of the Orient. I am an historian and I study the history of the Orient in several of its aspects. More concretely I study the history of Arabia and Moslem history. This requires mastery of so much knowledge and work that it is just not a serious proposition that I change over from Arabian studies to China. A scholar should know some general things and also have a concrete area of work where he should know all the details and also be active bringing out new facts. I don't wish to exchange my work for another, but sometimes fate forces my hand. Now, for example, Islam as a religion has greater social importance than the history of Arabia. And so within the bounds of my profession I deal with a lot of things. I find my profession interesting. I chose it on my own and if I had to do things over again, I would make the same choice. I would study in the same department. I would study the very same Arabian language.

- Dear Mikhail Borisovich, everyone knows you have been educated as an Arabist. My question is related to your knowledge of the Islamic world. Do you think that one day there will be a rehabilitation of Islam in people's eyes after all the sad events in the world? Thank you.
- If we speak of people with a capital letter "P", then you should remember that a large number of people in this world are Moslems. They have no need to rehabilitate themselves in their own eyes. If the opinion of poorly educated Europeans and Americans is that Islam is bad in some way, then no rehabilitation is needed there either. As for what is going on in the world, I see two types of events which have no bearing whatsoever on Islam. One category of events is the use of terror in a struggle. Remember, terror is not a phenomenon, it is a method of struggle whereby you frighten people, don't just destroy things. This is the method of combat of the weak. It is widely used by the most diverse kinds of movements, some of which are religious and others of which are not. I recall that before September 11th the biggest explosion was in Oklahoma. That was more vicious than the explosion of September 11th, because the people who prepared the bombing in Oklahoma did not sacrifice themselves but instead blew up a kindergarten. They were ordinary Americans, Christian fundamentalists. The second phenomenon which is occurring also has nothing to do with Islam as such: it is the increasing influence of religion in the whole world. This is going on in America, where half of foreign policy is dictated by Christian fundamentalists. It is now also going on in Russia, gradually in Europe and in many parts of the Moslem world. We have to consider whether this phenomenon is for the better or worse when religion becomes an active political force. The issue is not rehabilitation, but to understand the situation in which the Islamic world finds itself today. It is not itself at fault for this situation. It has no reason to seek rehabilitation.

- Mikhail Borisovich, how do exhibit items from oriental cultures, for example, end up in the Hermitage? Do you buy them? Or are they gifts or the result of exchanges with museums in the Orient?
- They come to us by the most varied routes. Now is no longer the time of Catherine, when she bought the very best collections around the world. That was the best way. It was a guarantee of sorts. If a collection is very famous, it means that at least 80% of the collection consists of masterpieces. We don't have similar possibilities today. Historically speaking we have gone through different phases. We made our purchases and sent out archeological expeditions. There were nationalizations and also art that had been confiscated from defeated Germany. Now we do make purchases, but not much since we don't have the money. Still you have to go out and buy. We buy things which fill our vacuums, those narrow world cultures which are not represented in our collection. We also try to return to Russia things which have historic value. Not just things that were made here and exported, but also things which have an historical value. Not long ago we acquired a remarkable fan that was made and hand decorated with water colors. The fan was made for the coronation of Paul I. We also have acquired a remarkable miniature with the portrait of Alexander I for our exhibition entitled "Alexander I". Museums do not exchange works of art permanently. What happens is an exchange of exhibitions.

- Mikhail Borisovich, the culture of the Orient was always very enigmatic. You have been engaged in studying it for many years. Could you tell us now what secret of the Orient you have even partly revealed for your own knowledge?
- I have not uncovered any secrets. Though I can say that in the Moslem East I feel rather calm, just like in Europe or in Europe or in Russia. With respect to mysteriousness: Russia itself is also considered by the whole world to be wildly enigmatic, although in my view there are no enigmas here. Indeed the study of other cultures whether scholarly or simply as a tourist looking for entertainment is very important for people. Because we live in one world even if we speak different languages. Just as we have to understand other languages, so we must understand each other's culture. There is no need to comprehend secrets. A Russian will never become an Arab and an Arab will not become a Chinaman. They may become Americans, because being American is not a nationality, it is something broader as a concept. This is what we wanted to create in the Soviet Union, and the Americans succeeded at it. Entering into different cultures enriches a person. It is the task of any museum and for the Hermitage as well - to help people. To help people comprehend not secrets but the charm of other cultures.

- Mikhail Borisovich, please tell us whether Sokurov's recent participation in the internet meeting in the Hermitage is just a coincidence or whether there is some purposeful combining of efforts between Sokurov and the Hermitage following the successful shooting of his film "Russian Ark"?
- It is without question a coming together of Sokurov and the Hermitage, but not after the shooting of the film as such. "Russian Ark" was itself the result of our joining efforts. We worked with Sokurov before that. He truly loves the Hermitage. He is a rare man, who understands the museum and knows it inside out: the exhibitions, people and scholarly activity. We long wanted to make something that would demonstrate the spirit of the Hermitage. And in "Russian Ark" we succeeded. Now we have many other joint plans. Sokurov feels fine in the Hermitage and we feel fine and comfortable with him. Together with him we did "A Day Dedicated to the Memory of the Blockade", installations, a theatrical show, a laser show, and an exhibition. I think it all worked out very well. This is a fine example of what should occur in a museum: we have a lot of music and now we also have a great film director who is working with us.

- What has happened to the works of art that ended up in the museum after the Second World War? Will they be returned to Germany?
- After the Second World War art treasures that had been confiscated in Germany arrived in Russia as compensation for the destruction of Russia's cultural heritage that had been consciously carried out by the German authorities, by the Nazis at the time. A large part of these treasures was returned to Germany long ago. What remained is not so much and therefore what we are talking about is whether to return the remaining works. I usually use another term - 'transferred'. Because everything that was done after the war was done normally, in keeping with the spirit of the times. Now, insofar as we live like neighbors and we have completely different relations with Germany, we are returning part of this heritage by mutual accord. There have been several such transfers. Exactly in the same way several German projects were carried out to assist cultural life in Russia. These are transfers which should be effected at the highest level. If the Russian government considers that something that was formerly German should be transferred to Germany, then why should we object? Things should happen only in this manner when there is a material interest and it all makes sense. But there is no reason to turn this into a political game. Each time we should approach this issue in a pragmatic way. These treasures are most needed by the public and there is not a great deal of difference where they are stored, except for things which are especially sacred for Germany.

- Mikhail Borisovich, are there any near-term plans for exhibiting classical Dutch painting? Are you going to resurrect the Fieldmarshal's Hall? Is it possible to restore the Winter Garden?
- There is no particular need for us to put on an exhibition of Dutch painting. Our own collection is the best in the world. We intend to make a new Dutch gallery and a new Dutch room. It will be called the "Peter Gallery" and it adjoins the Winter Garden. Its conversion into a gallery of Dutch painting is linked with the general plans for restoring the Winter Garden. The Winter Garden will be restored by a common effort with our Dutch friends. Now we are completing work on the plan. We will not do anything radically new, such as cover it with glass. We will simply restore it and try to make a new selection of plants, try to make it better organized. Thе main thing is we will provide a new system of insulation to stop the infiltration of water. The insulation has to be changed every 30 years and we haven't changed it for a long time. As regards the Fieldmarshal's hall, it is gradually being restored. We are gradually putting back there all the portraits of the fieldmarshals which are now undergoing restoration work.

- How many employees does the Hermitage engage (including both museum staff and those employed in its related subdivisions)? Who is responsible for deciding international issues such as those relating to exchange of art treasures with different countries etc)?..
- The Hermitage has a bit more than 2000 employees of all varieties. We have about 200 research staff and about 200 in the educational section providing lectures, running guided tours, working out methodologies. A large number of employees are engaged in engineering specialties looking after the Hermitage's huge organization. There is also the security service and others. All matters relating to the life of the Hermitage are within the competence of the general management, meaning the director and his deputies. We also have a scholarly board in the Hermitage. Several of the main areas of the Hermitage's activity are controlled by the Ministry of Culture: the question of import/export, storage, financial discipline. We have a good deal of autonomy and also the right points under outside control.

- Dear Mikhail Borisovich, does the Hermitage have statistics on foreign visitors to the museum? How much should an entrance ticket to the museum cost on average for the museum's own needs to be covered by the sales proceeds from tickets? And one further question: which exhibit items in the Hermitage would you save first if there were to be a situation of force majeure? Thanks.
- The museum's needs are never covered by sale of tickets. We have a global restoration going on which no tickets could ever pay for. But to cover our daily expenses, a ticket would have to cost roughly the same as tickets cost today in all the museums of the world which are not fully subsidized by the state, something on the order of $10.00 The Museum of Modern Art in New York has put in place a voluntary payment of $12.00 We could maintain the museum if our compatriots could pay the full cost of a ticket. But the Hermitage assumes responsibility for ensuring that our compatriots are able to visit the museum at a price acceptable to them, which is today on the order of $3.00 We also ensure that children, students in institutions of higher learning, and retirees are allowed to enter free of charge, and they constitute approximately one-half of all visitors. In general the statistics are as follows: we have about 2.5 million visitors, of whom 400,000-500,000 are foreigners. Out of the remaining Russians, approximately half visit the museum for free. On the other hand, we hope the state will become rich enough to maintain us fully at its expense and then the museum will become free for visitors, just as the British Museum is. That is our dream. As regards exhibit items, we have lists of what should be saved first in the event of force majeure situations, which do happen rather often. For example, every year there is flooding in Petersburg and we have instructions what should be moved first, though in fact the places that are flooded each year do not contain any art works. We have scenarios for all situations. In these lists we mention first the paintings by Leonardo, Raphael, Rembrandt, items from our storeroom of diamonds and precious stones, etc.

- Mikhail Borisovich, which children's activities have been planned in the Hermitage for the summertime school holidays?
-We have a multitude of activities for children. They do not only go on during the holidays. When children come here our security staff pay attention.. They are a special category of visitors. We constantly offer Hermitage courses for little children, as well as lectures, guided tours and artistic studies. During the holidays we cannot satisfy all requests. Big as the Hermitage may be, we are not made of rubber. For that reason we do a lot of our work with children outside the Hermitage grounds, in Petersburg , in Russia, and in the world at large. We have branches of the Hermitage and exhibition centers which also work permanently with children, as for example in Kazan. When we leave the Hermitage grounds, we take Hermitage lectures with us, in particular the lectures prepared for children. We also actively use the Internet. Now we have opened a Virtual Academy. Whatever you obtain in the Hermitage itself should also be accessible in the Internet. This is one of our most important tasks. In our Virtual Academy, which is located on our site, we now have three special programs. There will be more.

- Mikhail Borisovich, which rooms or exhibitions would you advise schoolchildren in the 6th to 9th grades to visit?
- I would recommend they begin with antiquity. We have rooms devoted to ancient Egypt, to Russian antiquity, to the ancient Scythians. When they grow up, they won't find time or they will want to look at paintings. This is a special basic education. If you recall who the Scythians were, if you remember how the Tauride Venus looks or the statue of Zeus in the Hermitage, then you have a cultural basis which distinguishes you who have been in the Hermitage from someone who has not been there. I can speak about this from my own experience. Then later you will look at paintings, at modern art.

- Mikhail Borisovich, does the Hermitage itself organize guided tours for children from around the country or is this something done by tourist agencies with whom the museum cooperates? If so, tell us which ones, please.
- There are tourist agencies which arrange this at the request of those who contact them. And the Hermitage itself has a Tour office which handles requests for guided tours. But otherwise we do not look after special arrangements.

- Dear Mikhail Borisovich, please tell us about the Hermitage's kindergarten, how it arose in the Hermitage and why. I understand it is open to the children and grandchildren of Hermitage employees. Thanks.
- I will begin with the latter part of your question. My answer is yes, and no. There are the grandchildren of our staff and also just children. The kindergarten developed as a thing on its own. At first it was a peripheral activity. It was a kindergarten oriented towards the artistic upbringing and on this basis, thanks to their initiative, that is the initiative of their remarkable director, an alliance was forged. We began to help them. Now there is a permanent collaboration. They have received an official status as the Hermitage kindergarten. They are on their own, but we lend them the use of our name and help them to organize all their wonderful activities, helping to "place" the children in different historical epochs and different cultures. This is very important. Aesthetic upbringing, the formation of taste - all this comes at a very early age. We are pleased that we can assist them. And a great deal depends on the individual who directs all of this.

- Dear Mikhail Borisovich, is there a cultural competition between the Moscow and Petersburg museums or does Petersburg maintain its former primacy as the cultural capital of Russia?
- To begin with, we always have primacy. That's clear. There is no such thing as competition between good museums. Because sharp competition exists in an undeveloped market. In a bazaar, for example, you will find real competition. What we have is some common work and what I would call rivalry. In the common work each museum has its own field. Now there is a Union of Museums of Russia which unites us all. Therefore there is a certain complex interaction on the single museum platform of Russia. And there is rivalry in various niche areas. This is a healthy relationship.

- Mikhail Borisovich, did last year's jubilee have an impact on the museum's visitor count and what is the Hermitage's forecast for this season? Thank you.
- I must say that the 300th anniversary did not have a strong influence on last year's number of visitors. During the first half year there were few guests. Everyone thought it would be impossible here: too few hotels and so forth. Moreover, there were many official activities with days when the hotel may not have been closed to the public but extra outsiders were scarce in the city. This year we shall see. Our main season, the summer, is still ahead. We think that the number of foreign visitors will increase, while the number of Russian visitors will stay the same. We don't forecast any big increase. And in general if we can speak openly, the 2.5 million visitors who now come to the Hermitage is the number which the museum can accommodate in normal conditions, without any special reconstruction, and we are not trying to raise the number of visitors. What is important for us is not the quantitative aspect; it is the quality of our guests and the quality of the experience that they have here. That will remain so until the time when we open new exhibition areas in the General Staff buildings and elsewhere. Then we will be able to receive more guests.

- Dear Mikhail Borisovich, in the internet meeting with Sokurov, Alexander Nikolaevich said that he is planning to shoot one more film in the Hermitage, this time not a documentary but something fictional. What do you think of this? Is it proper to make movies within the museum walls?
- Let's put it this way: I am not yet informed about Alexander Nikolaevich's precise plans. That is the first thing. Secondly, "Russian Ark" is also a fictional film. As a rule we do not allow general entertainment films to be made in the Hermitage. We think it is inappropriate to use the Hermitage as a backdrop or decoration. A film made here should be about the Hermitage. As regards Sokurov, he is a person who knows all the details and subtleties of the Hermitage, and that is why if a film is born it will certainly be associated with the essence of the Hermitage. We will discuss it. We'll see. We have special relations with Sokurov.

- Mikhail Borisovich, the internet site of your museum has been generally recognized as one of the best. We invite your museum to participate in the anniversary event "10 Years of the Russian Internet" which will be especially featured on www.10RU.ru. We also invite you to take part in the concluding show of our program "Roulette Show", which will take place on 30 September 2004 in the Expocenter in Moscow.
- I think it is likely we will take part. It is pleasant to hear that the Hermitage was and remains an important element of the Internet. Every time our site is recognized as the best, I think the whole situation can change and next year we will no longer be the best. For the time being we have succeeded in holding onto our place. The site is being updated. The site is interesting. That is very important for us. The Internet allows us to make culture accessible and resolves many issues which the museum faces.

- Dear Mikhail Borisovich, please tell us about the educational seminars you offer for employees of other museums. How can one get into such a seminar? Thanks.
- The seminars are organized by the Hermitage, and you can get in if you make contact with our scholarly and educational department. We have a whole program which we like to call our "General Staff of Russian museums", making a playful reference to the name of one of our buildings. The seminars are varied. Some are done jointly with the Russian Museum. Others, with the organization PROArte. Also with the Union of Museums of Russia. We run 3 - 4 seminars per year. I repeat: you can get in by applying to us or to the Union of Museums of Russia, or to the Union of Museum Employees.

- Mikhail Borisovich, why did the Hermitage decide to embrace Siberia? Recently you have put on many exhibitions in cities around Siberia. From my point of view it is fine if Russians are able to become acquainted with the masterpieces of the Hermitage without traveling to Petersburg.
- We reach out not only to Siberia, but to other regions as well. The choice of Siberia was influenced by the fact it is a remote region and people living there unfortunately have fewer opportunities to come to Petersburg than people living elsewhere. For a long time we wanted to implement this project, which is rather complicated for us. We put on not only exhibitions but also entire Hermitage Festivals. There are lectures, appearances by the Hermitage Orchestra, seminars, and work with children. Everything that goes on in the Hermitage is reproduced in miniature in other places. This demands great efforts from the Hermitage. And also great efforts from those who receive us. It is not just a matter of money. We set rather tough conditions: there are 400 questions which the other side has to answer positively. If we do not see an active desire to receive the Hermitage in the right way, then we do not go out to the region. We don't do this just to put tick next to some location on a list.

- Mikhail Borisovich, how do you feel about contemporary 'non-classical' art that is closely related to photography, electronics, computers, or the internet? Does the museum have plans to exhibit, or rather I should say to present to the public such non-standard works?
- Now that we have decided to be involved with modern art, we try first of all to deal with classical modern art. We are open to all forms including the latest artistic technologies. We do put on exhibitions of photography and video art. But we show only what has earned a reputation for itself. What has become 'a classic'. If we are talking about installations, then this means Shirin Neshat. If it is photography, then Irwin Pen. And so on. We will continue on in this way in the future. But we also are making plans to create a museum of the 19th and 20th centuries in the building of the General Staff. This will have more space so that we can display brilliant examples of topical contemporary art.

- Do you have any plans for offering specialized guided tours for children during the school holidays?
- That sort of work goes on all the time. It is not just for emergency situations such as when there are school holidays.

Thank you for the meeting, for the timely and interesting questions. Good bye!